Bec Davidson
#0
Hi there,
 
I brought a red nose pitty last year off a couple in northern qld in australia. The dog we were told is from overseas and wasnt born here. He didnt have any papers when we got him but they said they had some. We tried getting in touch with them again to find out his bloodlines but they have never gotten back to us. I contacted a APBT club in NZ as we dont have any here and the woman said she could try to work out an idea of his lines with a team and then ask another team at a different club and see what they think. I was wondering if i put photos and stuff on here if anyone can take a look and see if maybe they have some idea of what he could have in him. He is completely red from nose, eyes, whiskers, claws everything. He is a gorgeous boy and i just would love to know something about his life before we got him as there isnt many ways to get help over here as AUS is dumb and have banned this beautiful breed of dog.
 
Thanks
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Bec Davidson
#4
oh cool. It would probably help if i had some idea of his parents hey. I know nothing other than hes a pit bull
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bill wright
#5
not trying to sound like an asshole,but OFRN isnt a bloodline,the bloodlines that make up OFRN are lightner,hemphill,wilder,wallace and maybe one or two more,but blze-n-pits is correct,without a pedigree you will never know,there is no way to tell what bloolines a dog comes from just
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Blaze_N_Pits
#6

I’m confused... Always thought that OFRN was a bloodline..? They produced their bloodline by mixing other bloodlines to get the traits they were wanting. Another ex. would be say the RE bloodline... they mixed other bloodlines to produce traits they were going for and so on with other bloodlines. Every bloodline is usually a mix of other bloodlines to produce certain traits. I may be wrong about the OFRN not being a bloodline, but I always thought it was.

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bill wright
#7
nope,heres a bit of the history
THE "OLD FAMILY RED NOSE" DOGS By E.L. Mullins.First of all, this is not a review. I cannot possibly say anything concerning the "Old Family Red Nose" dogs that has not already been repeated a hundred times before. This, therefore, is simply another record of what history has already given us and a re-introduction to the very significant part of the history of the American Pit Bull Terrier.When we discuss the origin of the "Old Family Red Nose" dogs, we are really discussing the original dogs bred by such men as William J. Lightner and Con Feeley. It was around 1914-1916 that Red Howell, Al Dickson and Joe Peace had dogs from the first litters off of Lightner's "Vick" and Lightner's "Pansy". When the first World War came along, Joe Peace and Al Dickson were drafted and Red Howell was left with the dogs. Red Howell sold some of the dogs, however, most of the dogs he placed in capable and reliable hands of those he knew he could trust. During this time they were known as just food pit dogs. The name "Red Nose", at the time, had never been used to describe a particular line of dogs. It would be Dan McCoy who would later be credited as the first man to coin the phrase, "Old Family Red Nose" dogs to describe and distinguish these dogs as an individual line or strain of the American Pit Bull Terrier. History later gave us the litter of Ferguson's "Centipede", Hemphill's "Golddust", Morris' "Pinkie", and Howell's "Banjo", as well as their close relative, William's "Cyclone".Robert H.(Bob) Hemphill, along with Red Howell, went to the kennel of Harvey and Owens in Amarillo, Texas and together they purchased "Golddust". "Golddust", of course, later went to Harry Clark and then to D.A. McClintock, where he died. Earl Tudor obtained "Centipede". "Centipede" was then loaned to Red Howell. Later, Earl Tudor sold "Centipede" to Dave Ferguson. Earl Tudor was also the man who owned the dog called "Cyclone" and eventually sold him to Jim Williams's. It is felt that if Earl Tudor and Red Howell had not won such great battles with these dogs mentioned above, as well as other, that made this particular line so popular. This was the first time you really began to hear about "Red Nose" dogs as a strain.Now, not all of the offspring were whelped "Red Nose" from this stock. Some people still feel that the blood in the Con Feeley dogs was much more "Red Nose" then that of the Lightner dogs. It is said W.C.(Bill) Roper bred some of the best "Red Nose" dogs, sent to him by Jim Williams and Bob Wallace. I.D. Cole of Arizona also bred some extremely high caliber dogs, bred down from Slattery's "Mike" and William's "Blade". I.D. Cole also owned Cole's (Fulkerson's) "Spook", a direct grandson of the old Lightner's "Spook". However, the "Red Nose" dogs were never controlled by any one individual or select group of individuals. Many of the "Red Nose" dogs were produced through different crosses. In fact, there were many breeders and fanciers of the "Old Family Red Nose" dogs. There were men such as W.J. Lightner, Con Feeley, J.P. Colby, D.A. McClintock, Dan McCoy, Harvey and Owens, Ferguson, Ferrel, Conklin, Anderson, Bourgeous, Plemmons, Dickenson, Hanson, Williams, Roberts, Cole, Leo Kinard, Ed Crenshaw, Joe Beal, Jake Wilder, just to name a few. However, two of the leading breeders into the late 1960's and the man more often associated with the "Old Family Red Nose" dogs were Robert H.(Bob) Hemphill Jr. and Robert Forster (Bob) Wallace.Robert Hemphill had been friends with Earl Tudor as early as 1914. Hemphill became personally interested in the Lightner dogs and in the 1920's began an extensive search to locate and obtain high caliber dogs from this line.It was Dan McCoy who recieved word of the frenchman who lived in Louisiana by the name of Bourgeous. Bourgeous had received several dogs directly from Mr. William Lightner and for many years had bred and raised these dogs strictly for his own personal satisfaction. Bourgeous was extremely successful in preserving the "Red Nose" strain. Robert Hemphill went with Dan McCoy to Louisiana and aided by Gaboon Trahan, they purchased several dogs from Bougeous. Hemphill's kept only the highest caliber of these "Red Nose" dogs and began to form his foundation stock from them. Hemphill's early advertisements refelect that he had been raising "Old Family Red Nose" dogs since 1927. Thoughout his life, Robert Hemphill remained dedicated to the breed and faithful to the "Old Family Red Nose" line. Old advertisements throughout his life reflected his great devotion to keeping the line pure. Until 1966 he advertised strictly "Old Family Red Nose" dogs. After that time, his ads began to refect the adage of 1/8th to 1/16th "Dibo" breeding.Concerning the Lightner dogs, some fanciers and under the false assumption that W.J. Lightner bred only "Red Nose" dogs because of his overwhelming association with them. Those who have really done their homework know that this is not the case at all. He also raised great blacks and dark colored dogs as well. The pinnacle of Lightner's success as a breeder is demonstrated through two dogs; Hall's "Searcy Jeff", owned through time by Jim Searcy, Bob Hemphill and Dr. Hall and then Bob Wallace, was reputed as being the best of the "Red Nose" blood that could ever be bred. The second dog was "Colorado Imp", owned by Jeff Runyon and said to be the best of the black and/or dark blood that could ever be bred. Both of these dogs being bred from the same basic foundation dogs of the same man, William J. Lightner. When these two dogs met each other at Medicine Park, Okahoma in 1937, they proved William J. Lightner to be one of the greatest breeders of all time. After this meeting, Bob Wallace told Hemphill that he was going to buy this dog, "Searcy Jeff", even if it costs him a thousand dollars! Later, in 1937, when Hemphill left that part of the country, he divided up up the dogs with Red Howell and Dr. Hall. Dr. Hall received "Searcy Jeff" and Bob Wallace did eventually buy "Jeff" from him. Also in 1937, Robert Hemphill sent a young dog back to William Lightner, that dog now appears in many of the "Old Family Red Nose" line of today, that dog is known as Lightner's Pumpkin.Bob Wallace is also remembered in history for his association and great success with "Old Family Red Nose" dogs. However, there are two main misconceptions concerning Mr Wallace that should be cleared up at this point. One is that Hemphill and Wallace were partners. They were not. They both shared a deep respect of the "Red Nose" dogs and were both dedicated to keeping the line pure. They were both successful breeders in keeping the line pure, strong and beautiful. They even shared common breedings and interbred their dogs within each others line, but they were not partners.At the age of thirteen, Bob Wallace met and became friends with the "Old Timer", Ben Flannery. Throughout his teens, Bob Wallace owned many outstanding Bulldogs. He later obtained dogs from bloodlines of Dugan's "Pat". The second misconception concerning Bob Wallace was that he bred primarily "Red Nose" dogs. His original was quiet variable in color and were extremely talented dogs. Though these dogs did not show it, they carried a large amount of the "Red Nose" blood. One of the first foundation females of Bob Wallace was the famous Shipley's "Penny". Shipley's "Penny" was a direct descendant of the old Corcoran dogs. Wallace had always considered Corcoran to be one of the great breeders of all time. Other great dogs that are considered part of the foundation of the Wallace dogs were ones such as, Ferguson's "Centipede", Hall's "Searcy Jeff" and the famous Wallace's "Tony". "Tony" was said to be Wallaces' pride and joy. Wallace bred Shipley's "Penny" to "Centipede" and produced these three great dogs, "Stinger" "Scorpion" and "Spider". He later bred "Searcy Jeff" to "Spider" and produced Wallace's "Madam Queen". When he bred "Madam Queen" to "Tony" he produced the ever famous Wallace's "King Cotton". Other famous dogs appear in many of the popular "Old Family Red Nose" dogs of modern times are Wallace's "Red Rustler", "Red Rock" and "Red Rube", as well as the famous producing female Wallace's "Red Raven".The old advertisements of Bob Wallace during the 1940's clearly refect the breeding and maintenance of the old Corcoran and Lightner Line of dogs. Most of the advertisements were stated in bold print. During the 1940's Bob Wallace began to look "Red Nose" dogs to outcross his own with. At this time he felt that his own dogs were getting as tight as could be productively bred. When he began his search he found that the pure "Old Family Red Nose" dogs were almost extinct. Most of the lines were ruined or contaminated through careless breeding. However, he was finally able to locate and obtain seven pure "Red Nose" dogs of high caliber, whose pedigree he could authenticate.Bob Wallace was a man of character and honesty and often stated that there is no "magic" to the "Old Family Red Nose" dogs, that they are just one good line of many. The "red Nose" dogs have the intelligence, talent and personality to stand on their own merit. Bob Wallace has gone down in history as one of the greatest breeders of his year. Over the years as a breeder, Bob Wallace was known to sell less than a dozen dogs. He stated that he never sold dogs as a matter of personal principle. The results of his dedication to the breed is still apparent and appreciated in the modern day American Pit Bull Terrier.This has been a short narrative introduction to the "Old Family Red Nose" dogs and few of the men dedicated to their preservation. It is by far complete or conclusive. Their significance cannot be finalized in a few short paragraphs. Entire volumes could be written on the "Old Family Red Nose" dogs and their place in the history of the American pit Bull Terrier.

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Blaze_N_Pits
#8
I read this about half way through and will finish it when I have time to get back online a lil' later and thanx for posting it... full of info. .....  but I seen this.....
 
 'It would be Dan McCoy who would later be credited as the first man to coin the phrase, "Old Family Red Nose" dogs to describe and distinguish these dogs as an individual line or strain of the American Pit Bull Terrier.'
 
 
Wouldn't an 'individual line or strain' ... be a bloodline?
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Bec Davidson
#9
i agree with blaze n pits everyone i talk to or meet refers to OFRN being a individualised blloodline. I looked it up in my books on APBT and on the net and evertything i found also stated it being a bloodline.
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bill wright
#10
its a strain but not a bloodline,just like blue is a strain ,but not a bloodline
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Blaze_N_Pits
#11
That's what I'm not understanding completely... blue and red are just colors not strains... but OFRN is an individual line or strain
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Mr. Mixon
#12
Old Family Red Nose dogs are a line of dog. They are desendents of the Old Family Dogs from Ireland and some from also England. These dogs were very well guarded from other families dogs. Each family and household held their own line and didn't outcross with anyone but their own families. Being that the dogs were so closely kept and inbred and line bred that they had a recessive trait being the Red Color become a dominant within a certain families line. These extremely small game dogs had Red Fur, Amber/Red Eyes, Red Toe Nails and Red Wiskers. Some of those early dogs were just starting so show signs of the Red Nose.

Forward to America. Some Irish imigrants brought some dogs over to America with them, also some families shipped dogs over to family here. But later the dogs were becoming extinct. They were being outcrossed to other American lines so Dan McCoy went around the country and bought up and collected all of the "PURE" Old Family Dogs he could find (most were Lightner bred dogs). He partnered with Bob Hemphill, L.C. Owens, Art Harvey and the lesser known Buck Moon and these men worked long and hard on preserving "PURE" Old Family Dogs. Thus in doing so the dogs all began showing the Red Nose. Dan McCoy thus coined the term Old Family Red "NOSE".

Individual family dogs that now make up Old Family Red Nose dogs are Lightner (made the dogs famous with his Pit Wins), McCoy, Hemphill, Wallace, Wilder, Maloney, Patrick, Mason (not these blue dogs). One thing that those oldtimers stated a lot was that just because your dog carries a Red Nose doesn't make it an Old Family Red Nose. Almost any American Pit Bull Terrier line can throw a Red Nosed dog.

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Blaze_N_Pits
#13
Good post.
The first sentence you stated was, "Old Family Red Nose dogs are a line of dog." ....
So my question is... Is OFRN considered a bloodline?
Just wanting to clear this up... because it seems to me it is a bloodline because they bred numerous bloodlines together to create certain traits... therefore creating their own bloodline.
If it is not a bloodline... then I would love to have an explaination of what exactly it is. Cuz it's more than just a color and I know that.
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Mr. Mixon
#14
Quote:
Originally posted by: Blaze_N_Pits
Good post.
The first sentence you stated was, "Old Family Red Nose dogs are a line of dog." ....
So my question is... Is OFRN considered a bloodline?
Just wanting to clear this up... because it seems to me it is a bloodline because they bred numerous bloodlines together to create certain traits... therefore creating their own bloodline.
If it is not a bloodline... then I would love to have an explaination of what exactly it is. Cuz it's more than just a color and I know that.


One to admit error it should read "strain". Old Family dogs are a "strain".
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Mr. Mixon
#15
Quote:
Originally posted by: Blaze_N_Pits
If it is not a bloodline... then I would love to have an explaination of what exactly it is. Cuz it's more than just a color and I know that.

 It cannot be a bloodline in my opinion because so many different lines make up what is categorized as that strain. If that makes any sense.

I don't think that even the individual men themselves would like have their dogs grouped together as a single bloodline because although they all carry similar bloodlines they were taken in very different directions. Maybe Wilder/Hemphill are similar (thats why most of the times the names are put together as I just did) in their direction. But look at a Maloney dog and then compare it to a Wallace dog (note: not all Wallace dogs were Red Noses or carried the Red Nose), look at a Menefee dog and then compare it to a Patricks dog. They are all very different while all being categorized as Old Family Red Nose dogs.

Another thing is please don't confuse modern Red Dogs as Camelot and Castillo dogs as Old Family Red Noses. While way back in their pedigrees they may carrier some Wilder Geronimo blood, from that point forward they don't carry a single Old Family Red Nose dog as per the strain. They carry Red Dogs but "NOT" Old Family Red Nose dogs.

 I hope this is helpful and that half of the post doesn't get cut off like that last one.
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Mr. Mixon
#16
Quote:
Originally posted by: McCoy Pit Bulls

Yeah - I know the story well, Dan McCoy was relation.



While me and you don't see eye to eye, I want to say that your Kin did an excellent thing for the preservation of the Old Family Red Nose. The American "Pit" Bull community will be forever indebted to his work in the strain.
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Blaze_N_Pits
#17
When you want to add to forums, scroll to the top and click on 'new reply' ... that way your post won't get cut off. I always forget and have to re-type everything out and it is very annoying especially since you can't copy and paste.
Anyways... I finally understand why it is not a bloodline. Previously I understood that all of those bloodlines were mixed together as one to create the OFRN. Now I understand that it is numerous bloodlines that have their own OFRNs.
I would say it is a strain based off of both your (Mixons and McCoys) info. McCoy said that a strain is a term used for inbreeding.... and Mixon stated that these dogs were line and inbred in a way to where the recessive gene became dominant between those certain dogs. Thanx for clearing this up, lol can't believe I didn't get that at first. Please correct me if I'm still confused.. but I think I've got it haha.  
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Mr. Mixon
#18
Quote:
Originally posted by: Blaze_N_Pits
When you want to add to forums, scroll to the top and click on 'new reply' ... that way your post won't get cut off. I always forget and have to re-type everything out and it is very annoying especially since you can't copy and paste.
Anyways... I finally understand why it is not a bloodline. Previously I understood that all of those bloodlines were mixed together as one to create the OFRN. Now I understand that it is numerous bloodlines that have their own OFRNs.
I would say it is a strain based off of both your (Mixons and McCoys) info. McCoy said that a strain is a term used for inbreeding.... and Mixon stated that these dogs were line and inbred in a way to where the recessive gene became dominant between those certain dogs. Thanx for clearing this up, lol can't believe I didn't get that at first. Please correct me if I'm still confused.. but I think I've got it haha.  


You've got it.  ;-)
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